Oral History Interview with Gary Darwin

Oral History Interview with Gary Darwin

29-May-15

In 2015, the Library began recording interviews as part of a special initiative to create an audio archive of Plainfield residents' memories of the 1967 civil disorder. Project transcription was completed with funding received from the Union County Office of Cultural & Heritage Affairs.

Gary Darwin Interview MELINDA ALLEN-GROTE: [00:00] Today is Friday, May 29th 2015. This is Melinda Allen- Grote and I am meeting with Gary Darwin at the Panera on Route 22 in Watchung, New Jersey. So, Gary, tell me what the first thing that comes to your mind when I mention the spring and the summer season of 1967. GARY DARWIN: There’s a couple things, when I heard about this, the first thing that came to my mind was, I can remember that summer waking up one morning -- we lived on Stelle Avenue which was -- and 7th Street was kind of the barrier between the area where all the riots and trouble had taken place and the rest of the town. And, we were - - Stelle Avenue is like 9th Street, so we’re only a couple blocks over -- [01:00] and at that time the way my bedroom was set up, my bed was in front of the window, up against the front of the house. And I can remember waking up one morning in the summer, picking my head up, looking out the window and there were tanks going down Stelle Avenue. When people talk about what went on then, that is truly one of the first visions that comes into my mind. I’m like, tanks on Stelle Avenue -- nobody could believe that. The other thing that pops into my mind at that time -- and I’d have to go back and do some research -- but, I remember one of my grandparents -- one of my father’s parents -- must have passed away within that year, and my father -- we’re Jewish -- my father Page 2 of 20 was going to services every morning or every night -- usually one or the other, [02:00] not both -- and I can remember him going in the morning. At that time there was still an Orthodox shul on New Street, and I can remember -- which was sort of right in the heart of the worst part of where this all took place -- and I can remember him coming home saying he got stopped, his car was searched, and this went on morning after morning as he was going to shul for to say Kaddish for his parent. The other thing that pops into my mind very vividly was John Gleason being murdered. You know, I was a young teen. That was a very scary thing to think that just a few blocks from where I lived, a Plainfield police officer had gotten murdered, and if I remember correctly, [03:00] he was beaten with death with a shopping cart. One of the other things that stands out in my mind about that time, the newscaster, Gabe Pressman, who is still somewhat active in the New York media today, he got thrown in the Plainfield jail. And I don’t remember why; I don’t know whether he was interfering with police activity or something, but that’s something that stands out in my mind too, was Gabe Pressman getting locked up during that period of time. And those were sort of the first things that come to my mind. MA: So, the tanks on Stelle, prior to your waking up and seeing them, did you have any sense of there being any activity going on? GD: Absolute-- I mean, you could hear, when the riots were going on, you could hear it. You could hear, you know, firecrackers going off, and explosions, and lots of sirens, and -- so Page 3 of 20 yeah. [04:00] I mean, there was no question, there was something going on, and people were avoiding that area, as much as they could. So, absolutely, we were very much aware of what was going on at Plainfield, and throughout that period of time. MA: What were you feeling? GD: A lot of confusion. One of the things about my class -- I was the class of ’70, but my kids always -- actually, they’ve used some of this information for reports over the years; they’re out of school now, but -- my year was the beta case for integration of the Plainfield school system. The year I was going into sixth grade, which would have been 1964, they took all the [05:00] sixth grade kids from all over town, and put us all in one school. And that was the beginning of busing and integration in the Plainfield school system, and it was Washington School at the time, not the current facility that’s there, but the previous facility. It was called, “The Sixth Grade Plan.” I’m sure somewhere in Plainfield history, it still is referred to as that, and it was a pretty scary thing to got through initially, but we had an incredibly fun school year that year. We met all these kids from the other side of the town that we had never seen before. You know, everybody in the school was the same age, except for a few kids that had been held back. So you didn’t have any sort of “older kid influence” around. I remember for the first couple months of going to school, there was always a group of parents out [06:00] in front of school picketing the school, singing a song about, “Sixth Grade Plan must go.” Page 4 of 20 So there was a lot of dissension in both the black and the white community about whether this was really a viable plan. As I said, we had a terrific school year. It was a bit of a sheltered environment, I think, because they were -- this thing was so far under the microscope here in Plainfield. And then the next year, we went to Hubbard School, and that was a little bit of a rude awakening. MA: How so? GD: It was a pretty tough environment, and you know, that was sort of your first time you were in school with a lot of older kids, some were much older. At that point already, [07:00] Hubbard had started to become -- there was a lack of balance in the black and white population, and this school was becoming more black than it was white, as white families were starting to exit from the town, and the schools was a big part of the impetus for them doing it. So, it was pretty intimidating to go to Hubbard School at that point. And that sort of lasted right through high school. MA: So the exodus started before the riots? GD: It absolutely had. It had. You know, if you look at some of the developments, like in Scotch Plains that had gone up on the other -- you know, it was called “Scotchwood” at that point, you know, at the end of Leland Avenue, those were all built in the early ’60s. A lot of families moved out of Plainfield into that area, put their kids in the Scotch Plains school system. I remember [08:00] people moving to North Plainfield at the time. People were, you know, taking their kids out of school and putting them to Wardlaw Page 5 of 20 Hartridge, the parochial schools. You know, there was a lot of diversion there, and not for, you know, in terms of the educational experience. MA: So in 1967, you were how old? GD: Sixty-seven, I was 13. MA: And so you were in 8th grade, or a freshman? GD: I was born in ’52, and so I must have been 13. I was 7th grade through 13th . That would have been 1965. ’66, I would have 14 -- 15, so it would have been my first -- I would have been going into the high school for the first time. MA: What was that year in the high school life? GD: Scary. MA: What was going on that made it scary? [09:00] GD: Frankly, we found the black kids very intimidating. We weren’t -- we were a bunch of nice, Jewish boys that grew up here in Plainfield, and played sports, did fun stuff, you know. And you know, all of a sudden, you were being shook down for your lunch money, and you know, frankly I don’t remember that ever happening with a white kid (inaudible), but literally, kids would stand at the end of the cashier line in Plainfield High School, and you know, they’d watch you get change, and then ask you if you had any extra change for them. And you know, if you didn’t, it was, you know, “I’ll find you after school.” You know, you always sort of had that kind -- there was a lot of bullying going on. I guess that’s probably the best term, a lot of bullying going on. MA: What was the school’s response to that? [10:00] Page 6 of 20 GD: That was the last year -- maybe not the last year -- the second-to-last year Wally Gleason was the principal of the high school. And he pretty much lost control of that place. He pretty much lost control of that place. He did not -- you know, those are situations that people don’t necessarily get prepared for in their career prep, and I think, I’m sure he had a lot of the town fathers also behind him, you know, giving him direction. At that time, most of the people running the town in Plainfield were white, and it was not comfortable, at all. That’s my recollection. MA: But you stayed? GD: We stayed. I can tell you, [11:00] the schools tended to -- got worse the longer I was in there. My best friend, he should rest in peace, his parents pulled him out of the Plainfield schools. He was in the top 10% of his class. They pulled him out of Plainfield schools after his junior year in high school, and transferred him to Rutgers Prep. He went from the top 10% of the class to the bottom 10% of the class. He had a terrible time getting into college. And eventually, we went away to school together. You know, there was lots of that kind of thing going on. Parents were just trying to pull kids out of their environment. I’m sure my mother shared with you that eventually she pulled my younger brother out of there, out of the school system, but I think at that point, they felt like I had toughed it out that long; there was not much more to go. Page 7 of 20 My senior year, the school was closed a lot for riots, the school, that was ’69-’70. [12:00] I can remember, you know, that’s what these pictures are for. Week after week, the school being shut down. I guess one of the other things that comes to mind about the whole experience was that kids that you thought were your friends -- you know, you were in class with them, some of them you knew for years, some of them you didn’t, that all of a sudden became very militant, and weren’t your friends anymore, and part of it you sort of felt like they were acting that way because from the peer pressure they were getting on the other side. I can remember walking into -- this used to happen day after day after day, we walked into Plainfield High School my senior year, and you’d hear people whispering in the hall, “Get out of the school, there’s going to be a riot today; get out of the school, there’s going to be a riot today.” And sometimes, you know, there would be a black kid whispering to you, you know, “I would get away; I wouldn’t come [13:00] back from school after lunch,” or things like that, just sort of warning you that there was going to be trouble. But I can remember very vividly, very vividly, two experiences that senior year. One, there had been a fight between a black girl and a white girl after school one day, and it had caused a lot of issues, and we walked into school, and the word had come down that there was going to be a meeting of all the white students in the auditorium at eight o’clock, be there. So I can remember, we all went in, it was downstairs in the Page 8 of 20 auditorium at Plainfield High School. We’re all sitting down and somebody’s trying to get -- I forget who it was, was trying to get the crowd all razzled up about this fight yesterday, and what had happened, and the next thing you looked, that there was a balcony that went around the [14:00] upstairs, or the auditorium. All the black kids started filing in to the balcony. So the balcony is filled with black kids, down the orchestra’s filled with white kids, and all of a sudden, they were ripping chair arms off the chair, throwing them down into the crowd, and then kids started jumping off the balcony and started beating kids up. And I can remember running out of the school with two girls holding onto the back of my jacket, and getting across Arlington Avenue, looking back and going, just glad to be out. Another similar incident, I can remember being in the lunchroom one day. It must have been like in the Fall, because fairly early on in my senior year, we stopped going into the cafeteria period, between the shakedown for money, and just attention. You were allowed to go out for lunch, you’d go out for lunch. I can remember some kid, and [15:00] for some reason, I remember sort of being kind of a wimpy kind of kid was getting picked on big time. You know, either he was being shook down for money, and next thing you saw his tray fly up, and the next thing, the cafeteria broke out into turmoil. Trays flying all over the place, food flying all over the place. And I remember me and my friends bolted out of the building. We were in the parking lot, and I turned back to the school, and there were literally kids pouring out of the first floor windows trying to get out of the school. Page 9 of 20 So it was a pretty terrifying environment to go to school in. You know, I could give you a few more. I remember sitting in English class, with Mrs. [Egan?]. She was a long, long- term teacher there, and it was a nice afternoon, and there was some kind of riot breaking out somewhere in the school, and she kept [16:00] teaching the class, and you could see kids running in the hall, and the hubbub in the hall. The next thing, there was an announcement over the loudspeaker, saying, “School is now officially closed. Please be careful leaving.” So Ms. Egan said, she said to us, she goes, “You can stay here as long as you want.” So I can remember, I was sitting next to a friend of mine named Kevin [Higgs?] somewhere, working out, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? It was like early afternoon, you know. The first thing that goes through a kid’s mind, this is an opportunity to get out of school early today. So the halls kind of quieted down a bit, and Kevin and I decided that I would walk him to his locker, and then he would come with me to my locker, and we’d get out of the school. And we -- Ms. Egan’s room was right next to one of the stairwells, and we got like halfway down the stairwell, and the doors on two floors burst open. There was [17:00] a big crowd of black kids running in, and somebody yells out, “There’s two of them!” and we took off back up the stairs into Ms. Egan’s room, back into Ms. Egan’s room, and that’s where we sat for the next hour or so until things quieted down. But, that was somewhat typical of the environment. I mean, I saw one of my social studies teachers get punched out in the face, literally, right in front of me. Page 10 of 20 MA: So at 16, 17, what was your sense of what was going on? GD: You know, there was a lot of confusion. We couldn’t have -- a lot of these kids who you’d gone to school with, some of them since junior high, in fact when I pulled these out today, I had a picture of my first grade class from Cedarbrook School inside there. There was two black kids in my class, Herbie Fowler, and I can’t remember the girl’s name who was in there. And my wife [18:00] happened to comment, and I said, “Well things changed pretty quickly after that school.” You know, certainly in hindsight, it was so disruptive to the educational experience, and probably, if I think back a little bit, it probably was, we all didn’t leave there with the education that we should have come out of there with. MA: In terms of the black community what do you think -- do you have a sense at that time of trying to figure out what was going on to make people so angry? GD: Well, there was, you know, there was no question once, you know, the issue started to come up, that there was a lot of inequality going on in our society, you know. You know, I guess, we, looking at ourselves going, you know, are they looking for us to fix this? You know. [19:00] It’s hard to say what was going on in the black community other than, they had had enough, and it was time -- I’m guessing that some of the town fathers in Plainfield were probably pretty racist. And that’s speculation on my part, but you know, that was kind of the word that you kind of felt. Page 11 of 20 There was no question there was two factions. I mean, there was a group that had been formed called, “SOC,” Save Our City, and it was a group of racist white men, and who were out there. You know, they were ready to run into the other side of town and start fighting black [males?]. So there was racism, certainly, on both sides of the fence; there was no question about it. MA: What was the conversation in your house like? GD: You know, there was always some talk [20:00] about, you know, pulling out of the schools, going somewhere else. I don’t ever remember my mother forcing us to go to school on days when we felt like, you know, we were scared to go to school. But in reality, that was the truth. You were scared to go to school. You know, if you had to cross the line -- (inaudible) the National Guard, the state police standing there. So, you know, once things sort of blew up in ’67, in terms of the schools, you know, maybe the rest of the town calmed down a little bit, but in terms of what went on in Plainfield High School, I would tell you, it didn’t really calm down. The school kids kind of picked up the charge and just kept running with it. MA: Without any restraint? GD: Without any restraints, and frankly, I think a lot of them were being encouraged by their parents. [21:00] You know, you didn’t see parents running in there, black parents come running in there and pulling their kids out of school, moving them to other schools. So, I get what was behind it; I’m not sure the methodology was the way to go, but I can’t sit here and say I can tell you what the right methodology would have been, but I’m Page 12 of 20 guessing that there was a lot of things that were being done in Plainfield that, you know, in terms of how the town was operating, there were some real racists. And I probably was oblivious to it, but I’m guessing there were things within that school system that went on that were very racist as well. MA: You mentioned Officer Gleason. Do you have any more sense of what was going on there? GD: I don’t. I guess the thought, this in fact is funny, because I’m a member of one of these, [22:00] “I grew up in Plainfield” Facebook groups. And the name came up not too long ago, and his daughter chimed in on the -- she must live in the area here somewhere. And it may have been the anniversary of the killing, or something; I forget what it was. But one of the things that’s always gone through my mind, and with that, is these guys were all on foreign soil for themselves. I mean, they hadn’t dealt in a riot environment before, and that’s what was going on. Shooting, looting, fires, bombs, it was all going on there. I’m sure the average Plainfield police officer did not have any training for that, and possibly John Gleason found himself in a situation [23:00] where maybe he panicked, or didn’t necessarily make the right decision, but you know, smashing somebody’s head in with a shopping cart isn’t the right decision either. MA: Right. I want to go back to where you started when, waking up on a Saturday morning, or a Sunday morning, and looking out the window, your bed’s at the head of a window, peeking over, because you’re probably hearing a rumbling, and seeing tanks, what went through your mind? Page 13 of 20 GD: What went through my mind was how dangerous things must really be. If they’re bringing the tanks in, they must really be worried about what’s coming next. And, it was a scary environment. People were, you know, talked to -- I remember being nervous about going downtown, you know. I guess part of what was going on in people’s minds, they were thinking [24:00] that, you know, trouble could break out anywhere. You know, or was this going to spread from the other side of 7th Street over to this side? I remember our temple was on the corner of Grant Avenue and 7th street, and I remember there being a road block on Grant Avenue, at that corner there. MA: One of the things that I found so fascinating about your mother was that she talked about how she was glad that some of the people that moved out moved out, but they weren’t moving out. That they made, your family made a really conscious decision to stay in Plainfield, in spite of the temple moving, and in spite of what went on. GD: Well the temple didn’t move until many, many years later, and we’re very recent history. We’ve only [25:00] been out of Plainfield ten years. But the temple went through a lot of changes because their population left. MA: Right. And nobody new came in to replace them. GD: And, you know, it became much more of a regional temple than a local temple. You know, when I was growing up, I’ll tell you, 80% of the temple were families were Plainfield. You know, a lot of them were merchants from downtown, and some of the other things that I remember. I worked -- through high school, there used to be a Miles Shoes in downtown Plainfield, right in the middle of Front Street, a few doors down from what became Steinbach’s -- when I was growing up it was [Rosenbaum’s. And, you Page 14 of 20 know, watching merchants close their stores after leases ran out, as the population shifted, downtown Plainfield was such a thriving shopping area [26:00] with three department stores, and lots of specialty shops, and banks, and beauty parlors, and barbershops, and things like that, just go down the toilet. And I’d say, that change really smacked me in the face from the time I left college to the time I came back. You know, when I went away to school, there was sort of still a downtown Plainfield that you went to sometimes. By the time I had moved back after college, nobody went to downtown Plainfield. Even the movie theater started to close, but I can remember, you know, store after store after store. MA: How’d that feel? GD: You know, you sort of felt like somebody took something away from you. You know, and I guess so, and partially, I always felt, you know, this was a nice town. There’s plenty here for everyone. [27:00] You know, why does this have to go on? It’s one of the things that’s come to mind recently, I’ve been getting emails about a 45th high school reunion. I didn’t go to my 40th ; I will go to my 50th . MA: When is that? GD: It’ll be, the 45th is this summer. And I’m not going to go. But you know, a lot of us, you know, I’ve talked to a couple of guys that I still talk to once in awhile about it. Some of the -- we sort of feel like we don’t have a lot of interest in seeing those few -- this was not a class that ended on very close-knit note. Our graduation ceremony ended with a torrential rain. We marched out on the field; the sky opened up. We never walked. Page 15 of 20 They announced, you know, graduation ceremonies [28:00] were over. Please stop by the school to pick up your diploma, and the sky really opened up. And in hindsight, it was really a very typical -- a very appropriate ending for that class. And even today, you know, one of my friends went to the 40th reunion; it was predominantly black. There was no white kids. A lot of the white kids just don’t -- weren’t interested in reminiscing there. It was not -- doesn’t necessarily represent a happy, cheerful time. As opposed to my brother, who’s four years older than me, graduated in ’66, it was a whole different environment for him. And his class is much closer. They have a scholarship they sponsor, and you would think it was, we went to two totally different schools. MA: Well it was two totally different worlds. GD: It really was. It really was. [29:00] Ours was the last class to graduate from the old high school, too. They were building that new building the whole time we were there. See no, there was always, I remember hearing talk that thee was always hope that maybe moving into this new school would create a much nicer environment. But, in some ways I think it has. Based on talking to my brother who’s been involved in this scholarship fund, he feels like, that the Plainfield school system has a long way to go, that there’s, most of these kids are not college bound, and that’s not the direction they’re even being pushed towards. MA: Right. So looking back, in what ways did this experience change you? Page 16 of 20 GD: Well, I probably would deny this if anybody ever [30:00] asked me again, but I would say that, without question, it probably left me being a racist, in some respects. As open- minded as I try to be in certain things, you know, I have street-smart enough to -- there are certain situations where I feel very uncomfortable. And I think it hearkens back to some of the environment I grew up in. You know, I’m in New York all the time; I walk down the street. You know, there’s people you see on the street that are intimidating. Even, you know, when I go shopping, you know, I go to the cleaners in Plainfield, places like that. I see some of the kids that are hanging out. I can’t sit here and tell you anything other than, there’s no question [31:00] it has left me with unchangeable prejudices. Because I saw people that, and spent day after day with people that you thought were your friends, and your contemporaries, and all of a sudden turn on you because of the color of your skin. And no other reason. MA: So some of what you describe, and I think we are overusing the term sometimes, but it’s post-traumatic stress. GD: It is. MA: I mean, what you went through was traumatic. GD: You’re not wrong. You know, going to Plainfield High School every day was a pretty scary experience. And you never quite knew what the day was going to bring. And you know, part of it, you know, [32:00] obviously, high school kids, not everybody gets along with everybody, but you always sort of felt like, you know, “If this kid bothered me, I Page 17 of 20 know he’s friendly with this kid over here.” That sort of protectionist thinking kind of went away, because if it really became an issue, well, it really became an issue, well -- MA: So you lost a sense of community. GD: Yeah, you totally lost the sense of community. You totally lost the sense of community. And it was too bad; it really was. It was a nice school, a nice school system, nice town. I’m guessing if I put myself on the other side of town, maybe it wasn’t so nice. So that’s, I guess, kind of -- you got to try to -- I’m a sales guy; that’s what I do professionally. See, you’re always trying to put yourself into the head of the person that you’re trying to make the sale to, and what are they thinking, and what are they going through? I’m guessing that, [33:00] you know, the thought process on the other side of 7th Street was very different than what we were going through, where we were. I often wonder whether they were scared about what was going on too. So, I can remember going away to college. I went to the University of Denver, and describing our high school environment to some of my friends out there, and you know, it’s mind-boggling to them, that this is the way you went to -- you pull out a picture like this. This is my high school. You had to cross that line of National Guard to get to school every day. I remember they gave us -- at one point they started making us carry photo IDs to get in and out of the school, and your Plainfield Public Library card looked just like the federal Page 18 of 20 ID, so we used to use it. If you forgot your ID, you would use your library card to get in and out of school. [34:00] They never looked that closely. It’s funny, I hadn’t thought about this in awhile, but man, the security guards, Plainfield, after things started to get bad, they had security guards all over the school by every entrance, and roaming the halls during classes. All the security guards were black. And it’s just something that jumped into my mind, and they all were very chummy with a lot of the black kids. So I remember, we never really trusted the security guards. I never really felt like they were too concerned about our security. You know, they’d check your IDs coming in and out of the school, and so on. But, you know, I can’t remember hearing anything since then, from kids going to school in that kind of environment. [35:00] MA: Lessons learned? GD: Lessons learned, I guess if I had to do it all over again, you know, I guess, certainly hindsight’s 20/20, I probably should have pushed my parents more to get me out of there. It may have made a difference what I did academically. Academics really ended up taking a back seat, too. It was more surviving the school day then what you could learn. And one of the things that also sticks out in my mind, you know, Plainfield High School had a big complement of teachers that had been there for many, many years. I had teachers that taught some of my friends’ fathers, mothers. These people were horrified about it. They just didn’t understand. They just could not grasp how this [36:00] Page 19 of 20 environment could get disrupted so. You know, these were old school, old line teachers, where administration rules; they didn’t, you know, scratching their heads. They just lost control of the whole environment. So I’m curious, is this similar to what you’ve been hearing, or...? MA: Why don’t we sign off? GD: OK. MA: Is there anything else in closing? GD: No. If I think of something, I’ll pop you an email, or -- MA: That would be great. GD: -- some story or something pops into my mind. But you know, I still drive through Plainfield today thinking about what a beautiful town it is, and what a shame it is that even today, with all these great neighborhoods, nice neighborhoods, nice houses, that white families won’t consider moving in there. Or [37:00] very few do, and the ones that do sure aren’t sending their kids to school there. But, I still enjoy the town. I don’t go downtown Plainfield anymore. And I think, actually it’s kind of nice to see, frankly. Downtown Plainfield actually is thriving in a lot of ways right now. It’s just thriving for a different community than it was, which, it is nice to see. You know, I was telling somebody, my younger son just left on a trip, he just graduated from the University of Georgia, and he had seven of his fraternity brothers spending a Page 20 of 20 couple nights with us, and we took them out for dinner the other night over in Woodbridge to Harold’s. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. But it’s a great place to take eight big kids. So we’re on the way over, [38:00] I was explaining about Iselin, and what a rundown community it had become while I was growing up, with lots of empty stores, things like that, and the Indian community came in and as much as some people really resented -- and it was a lot of the older generation that’d been here for a long time -- they made a great town out of (inaudible), you know, there’s a thriving Indian community there. If you want Indian food, come on. You know, there’s places to shop, and frankly, Iselin -- I do business in India, and it is a famous place. People in India know of Iselin, New Jersey. It is one of the largest seats of the Indian population in the United States. So, I liken what’s going on to downtown Plainfield to that. It’s nice to see that it’s finally transformed to serve [39:00] the population that’s living there. MA: Thank you. GD: That’s my final note. MA: Thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE

Civil disobedience; Civil rights

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