James L. Mathewson Oral History Interview

James L. Mathewson Oral History Interview

9/17/2003

James Lee Mathewson was born in March of 1938, the youngest of the six surviving children of James Leonard Mathewson and Eula May Cantwell Mathewson. Educated in the public schools of Benton County, Missouri and in higher education institutions of the state of California, Mathewson was called to military service in 1961. After his discharge, he entered a diversity of businesses ventures, including restaurants, real estate, and radio broadcast.At the time of the interview, Mathewson, a Democrat, was in the midst of his final term in the Missouri legislature, having then served a little over twenty-eight years. He first was elected to the Missouri House of Representatives in 1974, serving District 113. In 1980 he won the 21st State Senate District seat, and during his many years in this chamber rose to the positions of Majority Floor Leader and later Senate President Pro Tem, a post for which he held the longest service record (eight years) in Missouri history. For his most recent biographical entry, please see The Official Manual of Missouri, 2001-2002, page 137.The recording session took place in the State Historical Society Directors office. Although time constraints did not allow for a full discussion of Mathewsons legislative tenure, highlights discussed during the course of the interview covered a wide range, including his general biography, Senate Bill 380 (also known as the Outstanding Schools Act of 1993), practical politics, the impact public service has on a legislators personal life, and prominent figures in Missouri politics during his years in office.

Oral History Program The State Historical Society of Missouri © 2003 Collection C3929 Politics in Missouri a.c. 312 An Interview with James L. Mathewson At the offices of the State Historical Society in Columbia, Missouri 17 September 2003 interviewed by N. Renae Farris NOTICE 1) This material is protected by copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). It may not be cited without acknowledgment to The Oral History Program of the State Historical Society of Missouri and the Western Historical Manuscript Collection, a Joint Collection of the University of Missouri and the State Historical Society of Missouri. Citations should include: [name of interviewee], [name of the interviewer], [date and place of interview], [audio recording or transcript], and [where it can be found, for example, The Oral History Program of the State Historical Society of Missouri, Politics in Missouri Oral History Project]. 2) Reproductions of this transcript are available for reference use only and cannot be reproduced or published in any form (including digital formats) without written permission from the Western Historical Manuscript Collection. 3) Use of information or quotations from any Politics in Missouri Oral History Project transcript indicates agreement to indemnify and hold harmless the University of Missouri, the State Historical Society of Missouri, their officers, employees, and agents, and the interviewee from and against all claims and actions arising out of the use of this material. For further information, contact: Western Historical Manuscript Collection 23 Ellis Library University of Missouri Columbia, MO 65201-5149 PREFACE James Lee Mathewson was born in March of 1938, the youngest of the six surviving children of James Leonard Mathewson and Eula May Cantwell Mathewson. Educated in the public schools of Benton County, Missouri and in higher education institutions of the state of California, Mathewson was called to military service in 1961. After his discharge, he entered a diversity of businesses ventures, including restaurants, real estate, and radio broadcast. At the time of the interview, Mathewson, a Democrat, was in the midst of his final term in the Missouri legislature, having then served a little over twenty-eight years. He first was elected to the Missouri House of Representatives in 1974, serving District 113. In 1980 he won the 21st State Senate District seat, and during his many years in this chamber rose to the positions of Majority Floor Leader and later Senate President Pro Tem, a post for which he held the longest service record (eight years) in Missouri history. For his most recent biographical entry, please see The Official Manual of Missouri, 2001-2002, page 137. The recording session took place in the State Historical Society Director‟s office. Although time constraints did not allow for a full discussion of Mathewson‟s legislative tenure, highlights discussed during the course of the interview covered a wide range, including his general biography, Senate Bill 380 (also known as the Outstanding Schools Act of 1993), practical politics, the impact public service has on a legislator‟s personal life, and prominent figures in Missouri politics during his years in office. The interview was taped on a Sony C60-HFB audio cassette (normal bias), using a Sony TC-D5 ProII manual recorder and an Audio-Technica AT-825 stereo microphone. Regrettably, mechanical problems impaired the recording, causing periodic sudden increases in speed on small portions of the audiotape. Additionally, the auto stop feature engaged out of turn on two occasions. However, in the sections unaffected by these difficulties the recording was generally of high quality. The following transcript represents a rendering of the oral history interview. Stylistic alterations have been made as part of a general transcription policy. The interviewee offered clarifications and suggestions, which the following transcript reflects. Any use of brackets [ ] indicates editorial insertions not found on the original audio recordings. Physical gestures, certain vocal inflections such as imitation, and/or pauses are designated by a combination of italics and brackets [ ]. Any use of parentheses ( ) indicates a spoken aside evident from the speaker's intonation, or laughter. Quotation marks [“”] identify speech depicting dialogue, speech patterns, or the initial use of nicknames. Double dashes [--] and ellipses […] are also used as a stylistic method in an attempt to capture nuances of dialogue or speech patterns. Words are italicized when emphasized in speech. Particularly animated speech is identified with bold lettering. Underlining [ __ ]indicates a proper title of a publication. Although substantial care has been taken to render this transcript as accurately as possible, any remaining errors are the responsibility of the editor, N. Renae Farris. JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 1 [Tape meter, 001. Begin side one, tape one of one. Begin interview.] RF: Today is Wednesday, September 17th, 2003. I‟m Renae Farris for the State Historical Society of Missouri, and I‟m in Columbia interviewing James Mathewson. He was in the Missouri House of Representatives for seven years. JM: Six. RF: Six years, excuse me. And is currently in the Missouri Senate where he has served since 1981, and for eight of those years he was the Senate President Pro Tem. As I said [prior to the start of the recording,] we‟d like to get started with a little bit of a biographical sketch. Things about when and where you were born, who your family is. Things like that. JM: Okay. I was born [on] -- there‟s a question about that -- either March the 16th or March the 17th in 1938 on a forty-acre pile of rock in Benton County south of Fristoe, Missouri. It was about two miles off of [U.S.] 65 highway. My father, James L. Mathewson -- only his is James Leonard -- he had inherited that from his mother [Nora Clark Mathewson] who died when he was about a year old. And later on he inherited that forty acres. There were eight children born to my father, James Leonard Mathewson, and my mother, Eula May Mathewson. Six of those survived. One of them died his senior year in high school from leukemia [Clyde Mathewson, in 1940], and the other one was… My mother had contracted a severe case of pneumonia during her carrying of the last trimester and the baby [a son] was born, but died like a month later or something like that. So there actually were six [surviving] children. I‟m the youngest of that six. As I sit here today, I‟m sixty-five years old. So my brother [Dr. Arvel D. Mathewson], who‟s JM = James 2 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris the oldest, he graduated from the University of Missouri Veterinary School. [He] was in the second class of the Vet School from its inception, and would have been [in] the first class except we were poor and he had to work like three jobs to get through. So he was in the second class. He is now deceased, [he died] about five years ago. He was like seventeen, eighteen years older than I. My sister next to him was my first grade schoolteacher in a little country school in south Benton County, Missouri. [She] made me one time sit in a sand box with a dunce hat. Until we got home. Since I was the baby of the family, my mother straightened that out [so] that we wouldn‟t ever have that happen again. My mother and father are both deceased. My father died in 1980. He was there to see me elected to the Senate. Then he passed away in December after my election in 1980 to the Senate where I came after the House. My mother passed away in 1981, in March, so she was there for my swearing in into the Senate, and then she passed away three months after that. My older brother, as I mentioned, is now deceased. My four sisters are still alive.1 We get together on a regular basis. I always have been one of those -- I suspect or would want to believe -- special people or [a member of one of the] special families, because I‟ve always believed that I enjoyed being with my own family more than I enjoyed being with anybody I‟ve ever known. And all folks can‟t say that, you know? (chuckles) We get along very, very well. We‟re very close, very tight. Of course, they‟re all older than me and I point that out on a regular basis. 1 Luerena Mathewson See, Geraldine Mathewson Durham, Evelyn Mathewson Williams, and Charlene Mathewson Hesse. JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 3 We were very, very poor. We were not all born on that forty acres. I was and two of my sisters were. The other three were born someplace else, like down around Joplin somewhere. I‟ve forgotten where. My dad was a lead and tiff miner. He was what was called at that time a “powder monkey,” where he knew how to use dynamite. He‟d blow sides of a wall out in a cave and they would mine that. He did that. We lived on that forty acres where we had some cows and some pigs and some chickens and big gardens. We survived with very little cash. A lot of people did in those days, and basically lived off the farm. [Tape meter, 050] Unfortunately, when I was five years old, my father decided that he didn‟t want to be there anymore and he took a walk. That put us really in a tight situation. And I never saw him until I was like eleven years old. Unfortunately for me, he and I never had a close relationship. I always felt like I‟d been mistreated because I didn‟t have a father. My mother moved us to the town of Warsaw from the farm -- farm, she called forty acres a farm -- we moved into Warsaw, Missouri which was like ten, twelve miles from where I was born. My mother cooked in restaurants and worked very hard. I can remember many times when she worked ten hour days, six days a week, and made a big old sixteen, eighteen dollars a week. We were very poor! Never was on welfare because my mom had too much pride for that. Somehow we made it. I don‟t know how, [but] we did. I will admit a weakness in my character in that I knew I was poor and I didn‟t like it! I swore at a very early age that there would come a time when I wouldn‟t be poor anymore, because poor was not fun! And I always felt self-conscious as I was going through my JM = James 4 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris upper elementary grades and then into high school because people that I knew, you know, they had more money than we did, and they had a father and I didn‟t, and those sort of things. But I think sometimes with hardship comes a great education. After I graduated from high school in Warsaw, Missouri, [in] 1955, then I went to California where my father lived and spent some time with him there. I started to school at Shasta J. C. [Junior College,] which is in Redding, California. Then I transferred over -- I was working full-time, sometimes two times, two different jobs -- and then transferred over to Chico State [University,] which is in Chico, California. Unfortunately, I never did get a degree. I always have felt like that that probably hurt me because I didn‟t. I don‟t think it hurt me financially

it made me work harder. It hurt me because I was self-conscious of it. I now have three [honorary] doctorates -- none from this campus -- but I have three doctorates. (chuckles) But I think it made me meaner and tougher and harder working. So even though I had humble beginnings, I don‟t today. I live very well. And I always have been able to be employed successfully. Now I own, with a partner, AM/FM radio stations that we do very well with. I‟ve created several businesses. My wife Doris and I, we got married in about 1965, I think it was. She had four children. I raised all four of those, and she and I had one. Those children, two of them changed their names. I didn‟t adopt them because I had a thing about that. You know, I didn‟t want them to ever resent me for doing that. So they changed their names. They‟re Mathewsons. And I have a son, Christopher, that‟s biologically mine. They‟re all married and all have families. All but one of them have been in business with me over JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 5 the years. They‟ve helped me and I‟ve helped them. They all live a very, very good life and they all do very, very well. So I have now -- as I call her “funny old Doris” and I are still together after whatever that is, thirty-eight years or something like that. It upsets her when I don‟t know that. But we live in Sedalia, Missouri, where we‟ve lived since I moved there in 1964. She was born and raised there. Fortunately, all of our children live in Missouri. And we are a very tight-knit family. We are together probably ten times a year, the whole family. Not just for special days, we just get together. [Tape meter, 100] Like I say, four of the boys have been in business with me. They have now bought me out of one of those businesses and they‟re paying me. And I appreciate their checks. But we get along. We‟re very tight. I can say the same thing about that family that I have always said about my siblings in that I‟d rather be with them than anybody I‟ve ever known. We‟re very close. Is that a quick overview? RF: Yeah! JM: Is that enough? Probably too much. RF: No, that‟s fine. Well, how did you get interested in politics? JM: In Benton County where I was raised and where I graduated from high school, it was solid Republican. Well, since it was solid Republican obviously I was going to be a Democrat. (chuckling) You know, because I‟ve never been someone who‟d want to just go along! Okay? So a friend of mine who is very successful today, we came up with a dollar each and we joined the Young Democrats of Benton County of which there JM = James 6 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris probably at least ten of us. So I was interested in politics. I never ever gave a thought to actually running for anything, because I was too busy trying to make money. When I moved to Sedalia where I met my wife Doris in 1964, I think, after I got out of the army… I was in the army for two years. That was back during the draft days, and I got out of the army. I was in ‟61 [through] ‟63 during the Kennedy embargo of Cuba. And that was kind of a scary time, but I never did... There was never anything going on during that period of time, fortunately for me. I mean, it was some scary times, when he blockaded across Cuba. And there were a lot of friends of mine that I served with in the army that were extended for three to six months because of that embargo and the chance that we were going to war. Fortunately we didn‟t go to war, and fortunately during my two-year tenure I never did leave the continental United States. So how did I get involved in politics? I was in business in Sedalia. I had a steakhouse and lounge, which I borrowed a hundred percent of the money to get. We worked hard at it, my wife and I, and we were in that for about ten years. We made some money. I expanded out and owned two Dairy Queens and a gift shop down at the Lake [of the Ozarks] and down by Fort Leonard Wood, and some other investments. One cold January night in 1974 my steakhouse burned to the ground, and I didn‟t own the building. And [it] sure as heck wasn‟t a successful fire, because I‟d carried $50,000 business interruption insurance for about nine years. And I‟d reduced it to $10,000 because I didn‟t see any point in having $50,000. About forty-five days after I reduced it to $10,000 [the steakhouse burned,] so I walked out of there with a whopping big old JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 7 $10,000 from a business that was making me from $55,000 to $65,000 a year! So it was a hit! So I‟m at home in January of ‟74 trying to figure out what‟s my next move business-wise, and the County Sheriff and the County Prosecutor and another person my age who was an attorney called me and said, “We‟re going to come by and see you.” And I said, “Well, gosh, that‟s exciting. Come on.” So they came over and said, “Put your jacket on, put your coat on,” -- because it was in late January -- “we‟re going to take you somewhere.” And I said, “Yeah, I‟ll bet you are.” They drove to Jefferson City, and they said, “Come on, get out.” I said, “What are we doing?” They said, “We‟re going to file you for State Rep.” I said, “No, you‟re not.” And they said, “Yeah, we are.” [Tape meter, 150] I said, “What the hell does a State Rep. do? I don‟t know about that.” “Well, you don‟t have another business to go into right now [and] it‟s an election year. We‟re going to file you for State Rep. and I guess you‟ll find out what they do.” And I said, “I don‟t want to do this! What does that pay?” They said, “$8,400 a year.” To which I said, “I spill more whiskey than that at the bar! You‟ve got to be kidding! Why would anybody take a job that pays $8,400 a year?” I don‟t know why I did it! There were three of them and one of me, I guess. We went to the Secretary of State‟s office and they filed me. They put up a big $25.00 or something and they filed me for State Rep. So now I‟m filed, so I probably ought to try to win! So I bought a book, said, “How to Win Your First Campaign.” And I did what the book said! I beat an incumbent [Peter H. Stohr,] and I‟ve been there ever since. That was in 1974. JM = James 8 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris I think what happens to most people that get involved not only in politics, but in life… You, whoever, okay? I think you get focused on something. You think you get halfway good at it. You believe you make a difference in the world [in which] we live because you‟re focused on that. And you get caught! You know, you just get hooked! And I did very quickly. I got hooked on it! I mean, here was a little poor kid [who] came out of Benton County, and I was all of a sudden a big old State Representative! I thought that was really quite a big deal! You know, all my family was there, my mom was there for my swearing in and the whole deal. I asked my mother -- because now I‟m important, don‟t you know -- I said to my mother, “Mother, please. Do not call me Jimmy Lee.” Which she always did. “I‟m important now. I‟ve got my best suit on, I‟ve got a brand-new white shirt, you know, I‟ve got a nice tie, I‟ve shined my shoes. I‟m going to be sworn in today to state government. Don‟t call me Jimmy Lee.” [She said,] “Okay, yes, Jimmy Lee, I won‟t.” She got lost and ended up over on the Senate side, and she‟s coming back down the hall and they‟re about to swear us in. I‟m trying to find her and the family to get them in there, and she‟s about a hundred people away from me of the Capitol and hollers, “There‟s Jimmy Lee!” So she really followed my orders. She never did. And God love her, I wish she was here to call me that today. So you know, I got hooked! I got hooked, and I got hooked bad. And I thought I was making a difference, and I didn‟t think anybody could do that as me. Then I was I guess lucky or smart, I don‟t know which. I‟d generally rather be lucky than smart. JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 9 But my second term I supported a candidate that probably I shouldn‟t have supported for Speaker [of the Missouri House of Representatives.] And my candidate won. You know, wasn‟t my kind of person. Here was a little old Baptist kid from out state Missouri and I was supporting a person of the Jewish faith from St. Louis County. Okay? He won. His name was Ken Rothman. And he became Speaker. And because I was one of the few from out state that supported him, it was my world. And he made me Vice-Chairman of the Appropriations Committee, which was big time stuff when you‟re only three years into your life in the legislature. [Tape meter, 200] I used that position to help some folks and to also to learn from. I started building a base from that, creating some friends on both sides of the aisle. I‟m of the Democrat philosophy, but I‟ve never been offended by anyone that was of the Republican philosophy. We just happened to think different on some issues. I believe that Republicans love their family just like I love mine. I believe that they‟re Christians just like I believe I am. I believe that they‟re going to go to Heaven just like I am. They‟re just kind of warped in their thought process about [things] while they‟re here. Okay? (chuckling) And I say that jokingly, because I have probably as many friends that are Republicans as I do Democrats. That‟s probably why I‟ve been in there so long. But I got interested, I got hooked. Badly hooked! Hooked to the point that I‟d bankrupt myself because I didn‟t have time to go work. I was focused. In fact, my friendly banker -- who is now deceased, wish he was around to see me today -- but he JM = James 10 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris bounced a check [of mine.] My wife called and said, “Jim, [the] bank‟s bouncing our checks. What are you going to do?” I said, “I don‟t know. I‟ll call the bank.” So I called my banker. I tell this story because I think it shows how you get so caught up in your world of doing what you think is the right thing to do for people and for the state that you forget that you got to go home and make a living. Okay? Because bear in mind I‟m making a big old $8,400 a year. I was used to making $60,000 [to] $65,000 a year. Plus I had other interest that was growing. I was spending the money that I‟d earned for a lot of years, and I was spending that and living off of it and was down here [in the legislature.] So I called my banker, who I‟d known for a long time and who had always been friendly to me, and I said to him, “Your damn bank has just bounced a $410 check on me. I‟m down here dealing in tens of millions of dollars. I don‟t have time for this. Leave me alone. Cover the checks and I‟ll be home one of these days and I‟ll take care of it.” And I was serious! To which he then got very serious and said, “Don‟t worry about it. Don‟t worry about it

we‟ll take your checks. You know, you‟re out of control, boy. You‟d better get your butt home and figure out what you‟re doing, because you may feel important but you‟ve still got an obligation here. And you‟d better recognize it, and you‟d better get home and start getting it squared away, „cause I‟ll bounce every damn one of your checks that come in here! Now you get home and get your life squared away!” Good counsel, good counsel. I did go home. He covered that check, by the way. And then I got home a couple of days later or something, and I went in to see him and he wasn‟t very kind. In fact, he was just downright rude! He said, “Mathewson, I‟ve JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 11 known you for fifteen years. When you were a businessman, you were a good businessman. Now you‟re a legislator, and you are a good legislator, but you aren‟t worth a darn at both of them at the same time! Now you‟d better figure out what to do with your life, bud, and get it squared away.” That was a tough time for me. Really tough! You know, I used to have an English teacher that would say -- she was very proper -- and she would say, “Jim is tall. Sam is taller, but Paul is tallest of all.” [Tape meter, 250] Well, I tell you that story because at that very time I went broke! Then I got broker, and then I got brokest! (laughs) Okay? I got worse! I literally -- so help me -- I was literally picking up pop bottles on the sides of the road to feed my family. By 1980, my banker said to me, “You need to file bankruptcy. You‟re never going to get right! Jim, there‟s no way. You might as well just file bankruptcy and let‟s go on down the road. And you‟re going to hang me with most of it, but that‟s the only thing I can tell you. I‟m not going to loan you another dime! And I don‟t know anybody else that is. You‟re a darn good legislator and you‟re doing wonderful things for the people of the state of Missouri, but you have no sense of taking care of what your problems are right now at home.” Because I‟d borrowed from everybody trying to survive. There wasn‟t anybody else to borrow from. And I was literally picking up pop bottles in the ditches to try to raise some money. We had hocked my wife‟s rings, we had hocked _________. We had sold our silver tea service, we had done everything we could to try to survive! I JM = James 12 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris was going in and out of Kansas City where I was working for a company up there when I could. It was a tough time! Very, very difficult time. But we made it. [Tape meter, 273. Tape recorder malfunctions, auto stop engages. A small portion of conversation is lost. Interview resumes after adjustments are made on recording machinery.] [Referring to the tape recorder cassette post] Is it turning? RF: Yeah, there it goes. And as you‟d said, you didn‟t file for bankruptcy. JM: Okay, we‟re back on again? RF: Yeah, it seems to be working now. I don‟t know [why it stopped.] JM: So I didn‟t file for bankruptcy, and I would tell you now that what saved me -- what had always saved me -- some member of the family came through for me. My wife Doris was working, trying to keep us afloat. Never, ever begrudged the fact that I was in the legislature. Begrudged the fact that I was gone all the time. She didn‟t like that. But she never begrudged the fact that I was there. Still doesn‟t to today! You know, she‟s been very, very supportive of what I‟ve done politically. From a sad side of it, this father who I never felt a closeness to passed away in 1981 and had never had a job that paid more than $4.30 an hour. But how I don‟t have a clue -- somehow he had amassed over the years about $120,000 in cash. (chuckles) Had it in CDs [Certificates of Deposit] making all of two percent. When he passed away in 1981, we split that all up. By the time we got that split up, I got about $23,000 [or] $24,000 out of it and that got me back whole again. You know, at least I could pay everybody current. I was alive again financially. We just suffered through it! [In] 1980 I ran [for] the Senate [and] was successful. JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 13 [Tape meter, 300] You know, I feel blessed politically. I feel blessed every way because my family‟s always been supportive of me. My family, both my siblings and my children have always not only been supportive, but also been proud. Okay? Proud of what I was able to accomplish. In 1984, I was [at the] my start of my second term in the Senate, [and] I was elected Majority Floor Leader. I was re-elected the next [session] year, in ‟86, and I served four years as the Majority Leader. At that time, the Democrats had… Twenty-two, twenty-three Democrats in the Senate. So we were clearly the majority party. But I worked well with the minorities at that time. And then in 1988 after serving four years as Majority Leader I ran for President Pro Tem, which is the leader of the Senate, and I was successful. And stayed that for eight years. Four [session] terms as President Pro Tem, which with my ego being what it is, that‟s the longest that anyone‟s ever served in the history of the state of Missouri. I‟m reasonably sure that I could have stayed. I didn‟t think that I should. I thought it was time for me to go on and let somebody else do it. RF: Why did you run for that to begin with? JM: Because that was the power. You know? People that have never been close to the Missouri Senate would not recognize it, and if I said it -- which I‟m about to -- it sounds egotistical. But the President Pro Tem of the Senate in many, many ways is the most powerful person there is in the state of Missouri. Even more powerful than the Governor because you control all the gubernatorial appointments! And a Governor cannot appoint anyone if they can‟t get it by the President Pro Tem of the Senate. Because the President JM = James 14 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris Pro Tem of the Senate is usually smart enough to make themselves chairman of the Gubernatorial Appointments Committee. And the President Pro Tem appoints all the committees, including the all-powerful Appropriations Committee where all the budget comes from. Not only do appoint the chair, but you appoint the members. So generally you have control over that, as you do over most of the committees -- or all the committees, really, because you appoint all the chairs. So you know, I wanted to be that person. [Tape meter, 350] I wanted to feel that I was not only a person who could be a follower but I wanted to prove that I could be a person that was a leader. And I‟d been Majority Leader on the floor, ran the floor, for four years. So I was in line to do that. And I won it… In fact all four times… [Clarifying his statements] I‟m sorry. Majority Floor Leader, I ran for twice. President Pro Tem, I ran for four times. It was a unanimous election in our caucus and on the floor every time. So I feel awfully proud of that. It was a good thing. We were able to accomplish a lot. I‟ve gone through five governors. They‟ve not all been easy to train. I‟m joking, but they were a little tough. Went through Kit Bond, who is my friend, and I hope always will be. I went through Joe Teasdale, who was a one-term governor. Went through John Ashcroft, who is the only man ever in my life that I had a love-hate relationship with. He‟s an interesting person. I‟ll sure not say anything negative about him because he‟s the Attorney General of the United States of America and he only has a JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 15 budget of like twenty-four billion dollars a year, so he can reach out and get me any time he wants to. So I‟m being nice to John Ashcroft on this tape. [Tape meter, 382. End side one, tape one of one.] [Tape meter, 001. Begin side two, tape one of one.] RF: Okay. I‟m sorry to interrupt. JM: That‟s all right. So at any rate I‟ve had a heck of a run! Now I‟m [in the] minority. That‟s not happy. RF: That‟s probably quite a change. A bit of a shock to the system. JM: It was a long ways downhill. You know, when you go from President Pro Tem of the Senate for eight years, and then about three years after you go out as President Pro Tem then they [the Republicans] take over… Who had been the minority all of a sudden become the majority. Generally I‟ve gotten along with them. I think it‟s a bruise to your ego more than anything else, because… I‟m one of those people that I don‟t think anyone ever thought I was very smart. They just thought that I‟d outwork everybody else, which is what I‟ve always done. Whenever everybody else went home at nine o‟clock at night, I was still there at midnight and I was back the next morning at seven o‟clock. And everything that moved, walked, talked and crawled in that Senate, I knew it. Okay? I knew what people were thinking, I knew what people were doing after hours, I knew what… I learned people. And I learned them well! I knew where their weaknesses were, and I knew where their strength was. I knew who their family was and where their problems were. So consequently I built a pretty good base. JM = James 16 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris I would tell you that 1993 was the year of years. That was the first year that Mel Carnahan came in [as Governor.] I‟d supported Mel in everything that he‟d ran for before. Supported him for Governor. Right after his election in November of ‟92… I had just been re-elected, too, to the Senate. I was President Pro Tem, had been four years as President Pro Tem at that point, from ‟88 to ‟92, with John Ashcroft [as Governor.] Ups and downs and circles there. So Bob Griffin was Speaker of the House. Bob and I generally got along. I am still convinced that somewhere in the future that people will write the story of Bob Griffin. And even though when he went down, he fell hard. And made some mistakes. I don‟t think he would deny that he did. Okay? Longest serving Speaker ever, like I was the longest serving President Pro Tem ever.2 I think when the history is written, though -- and it may take another ten years -- Bob Griffin will go down as probably one of the best Speakers that ever was here, and had great ability to bring folks together. And Bob and I worked well together. We didn‟t always agree, and we‟d holler and scream at each other and so forth. We loved to do that with John Ashcroft! Because he thought we were going to fight and he was praying over us. So I‟d been President Pro Tem for four years. Bob Griffin had been Speaker for -- at that time -- maybe eight.3 I‟ve lost track of how many years. He and I both were at the peak of our power. We both had a good majority of Democrats in both the Senate and the House. We had been trying to deal with this fellow named John Ashcroft for four years. I had as President Pro Tem, and actually John had been governor for eight. 2 Bob F. Griffin served a total of fifteen years as Speaker, from 1981 until his resignation in January of 1996. 3 Griffin had been Speaker of the Missouri House of Representatives for twelve years at this point. JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 17 So along came this fellow by the name of Mel Carnahan who was of our party and generally of our thought process. My wife and I had leased a place at the Lake of the Ozarks, a nice place, while I was President Pro Tem. So I used that for a hideaway as well as a place to entertain and that sort of thing. We didn‟t pay much for it because the person who owned it [was] in Texas, and I don‟t think they knew what it was worth. But it was great for us. And we had that for actually about six years or maybe seven. Right after the November election in 1992 when Mel Carnahan was elected, I called him and invited him and some staff down to this place at the Lake, and Speaker Griffin and some staff, and I brought some staff. And we went to my place at the Lake. My wife made a great big pot of chili and a big pot of soup and some homemade bread and so forth. [Tape meter, 050] That morning about nine o‟clock we set about writing a plan for the future of Missouri for the next five years. We stayed down there until about eight, nine o‟clock that night. And we wrote a plan! You know, for the next five years for Missouri. The interesting thing about our plan was… Then we went into the 1993 session -- this was like in late November or early December when we had this meeting down at the Lake -- and in January we start the 1993 legislative session. We accomplished seventy percent of our plan the first year. The first of our five-year plan we did in 1993! I mean, it was a great year for the people of the state of Missouri. And there were several great accomplishments in there that I‟m very, very proud of. Some of the bills I handled personally, some of them I wrote. All of them I was involved with. JM = James 18 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris And one of the proudest parts of that was Senate Bill 380, which is a bill for elementary and secondary -- and higher -- but it was for education.4 It was a tax increase! Every election that I ran after that, my opponents would try to beat me up with that issue. [Vocal tone of imitation] “Biggest increase ever known in the state of Missouri! It‟s terrible! Here he is, a big spender.” And all that stuff. And my standard theme was “God, people. Please forgive me because I cared about children and I cared about the most important thing in our life past family, and that‟s education, education, education. Forgive me for caring about kids. You know, I am a lowlife because I would want to raise somebody‟s taxes to help kids.” And by the way, just so you know, I‟ve asked my wife and my children to make sure on my tombstone it says, “Here lies a guy that supported Senate Bill 380.” I could have said, “Here lies a guy that wrote Senate Bill 380.” (laughs) Because I did the tax side of it. It was one of my slickest things that I ever did as President Pro Tem, but at any rate, I‟m not going to bore you with that. But that was a heck of a year! It was a dynamite year for us. The editorial boards all over the state of Missouri said that‟s the most successful legislative session ever. Because we did some wonderful things that year. Education was but one, but that was the one [which was the] most important thing to me, because it‟s always been the most important thing to me. So we had a good year! We had a good year. We had some after that, too, but that one was the big one. RF: When you went into the legislature, did you have anybody who served sort of like a mentor? Anybody who was a role model? 4 Also known as the Outstanding Schools Act. JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 19 JM: Oh, I think I picked them, but I picked them for different reasons. I think you do that when you go into an arena where there‟s several people. And I think there was not one person that I thought was the person I wanted to be. I picked different things from different people that I wanted to do. And gosh, you know, it was so exciting! Because you get there and you see all these people that are so busy. My goodness, they‟ve got bills on the calendar, and they‟re running around, and they‟re offering amendments, and they‟re doing all these great things! And you don‟t have anything to do because you don‟t even know how to file a bill, let alone do something with it. And then you think, “Oh, my goodness, I‟ll never be important like those people because they understand the process and I don‟t, and I‟m stupid…” Then you start watching them and you find out that most of them are no different than you. They have weaknesses, they have flaws, and they have personal problems. (chuckles) Most of legislators that I‟ve found, whatever their political faith [is], are generally well meaning. They‟re caring people. They want to do the right thing

they just have a different philosophy about what the right thing is! And that‟s where we get separated. But they‟re not bad people. I‟ll bet you in all the hundreds of legislators that I‟ve served with in twenty-nine years, there probably isn‟t six or seven of them that I really thought were not good people. You know, that were there for the wrong reasons. [Tape meter, 100] But generally, I think people are good. So what I did -- to respond to your question -- I tried to identify with one person because they did these things that I thought were the right thing and other person because JM = James 20 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris they did this, and so forth. And I grew from my knowledge of what they did and to watch them. You know, it‟s a personality game, to be honest with you. I‟ve always believed that if people knew me, they‟d vote for me. Because if they really knew me, they‟d know that I was a pretty nice guy! (chuckles) And that I did care about people. I‟d been poor, I‟d been broke, I‟d raised a family with a very limited amount of money. You know, I had gone through all those things that most of the people that call me every day that‟s got a problem -- I can relate! Because I‟ve had that problem. So my first campaign slogan was “I care.” In fact, I‟ve still got some of those buttons somewhere. And that was my campaign slogan, “I care.” And I still do to today. I think my biggest single strength is that I‟ve lived the life that people are hung up on. (chuckles) And I haven‟t done always everything right! I‟ve done a lot of things wrong. I‟ve just been lucky. RF: You‟d mentioned campaigning. Did you enjoy campaigning for office? JM: Yeah! Yeah, loved it! Loved it! Don‟t anymore. Okay? But when I say I don’t, I guess I do. I loved it! Because I just liked people. And again, I‟ve always had the feeling that if someone knew me, they would like me. I see total strangers… This is so goofy. I can be in New York City, or London, England, or wherever -- I‟ve traveled all over the world -- and I can be somewhere and I‟ll just be standing, and I‟ll look over there and there‟ll be some guy walking the street or some woman walking down the street, and I think, “I bet that person wishes they knew me.” (chuckling) Yeah! Because they would like me if they knew me! „Cause I‟d be kind to them. I am a very caring person, and I think that comes across with most people that I meet. JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 21 So did I like campaigning? I loved it! Man, I‟d just get out there and just knock those doors, and say “hi” to people. I was not that great on the issues when I started. I could share stories for hours about that! About how people would trip me up with a question. They‟d ask me and I wouldn‟t even know what they were talking about. And you know what I learned? I learned finally… Wasn‟t to start with. It took me a couple of campaigns to learn. But I learned that it was okay to say, “I don‟t know, but I‟ll find out and I‟ll get back to you. Give me your name and phone number, and I‟ll find out and I‟ll get back to you.” „Cause to start with I thought I was supposed to know everything. I think most people, most candidates that get involved in politics or maybe just in life period, they don‟t know that it‟s okay to say, “I don‟t know.” Because most people I‟ve ever met don‟t know everything. I‟ve met some people who thought they did. But I‟ve never met anyone that really did! So I‟m okay with that. But you have to learn that and you have to be able to say it in a way that people understand that you‟re not just playing games with them, that you don‟t know, but you‟ll get back to them. (chuckles) And let them know! And I learned that early on. So, no, I liked to campaign. Campaigning was fun. It got tiresome, particularly… Then you know, you‟re going from a House seat, which at that time had 30,000 people -- it wasn‟t even all of Pettis County! -- okay, to a district [where] I had seven counties, and then [in] all of that other six counties I probably didn‟t know a hundred people. So I mean that was a giant step to reach out there and run in that. Particularly I was running as a Democrat and that district was Republican! So I learned a lot. That‟s part of life, isn‟t it? You learn as you do. JM = James 22 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris [Tape meter, 150] RF: Well, in regard to say, lobbies, which ones would you perceive to be the most powerful, or maybe a lobbyist you felt to be the most effective? JM: Oh, I‟ll tell you the one I think that‟s got the most power. And you‟ve interviewed him or somebody here did.5 His name‟s John Britton. [Speaking in a joking tone, grinning] I call him “Poopsie,” because I kiss him on his little bald head about every morning. John was a professional lobbyist before anybody else picked up on it. Bear in mind, I‟ve only known him for twenty-nine years because that‟s how many years I‟ve been in the legislature. He‟s my dear friend. I love him. I really do. And he does me. We don‟t always agree. I don‟t always vote with him. And he‟s screamed and hollered and said nasty things to me on many different occasions, but he‟s a professional. And he also understands that I may not have voted with him today, but he‟ll need me again tomorrow. He‟s smart enough to throw it off. After he gets mad at me, he‟ll throw it off and the next day we‟re back being buds again. And I don‟t vote with him all the time. In fact, some of his stuff that he handles, I just tell him, “Britton, you lost your brain! I mean, where in the hell did you come up with this one?” And that sort of thing. But he is a true professional, and he‟s been a true professional lobbyist for a long time. And when he first met me, the second time that I ever saw the man, he knew my children‟s names, he knew my wife‟s name, he knew what I was doing for a living, and he knew ten people in Sedalia/Pettis County that I knew. Boom! He was professional. And everyone down there now that is a professional-type lobbyist -- like Britton has always been since 5 Collection C3929, Politics in Missouri, a.c. 39, 40. Interviewed by Will Sarvis on 21 May 1996. JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 23 I‟ve known him for twenty-nine years -- they‟ve learned that from John Britton, because that‟s what he does, that‟s who he is. Most people like the man very well. He‟s highly respected. RF: Was there any time where you found yourself put in the position of what you felt was best was actually in conflict with the wishes of your constituency? JM: Sure, sure! Oh, many times! RF: How did you resolve that? JM: You know, one of the difficult things about being in leadership is that you have to lead. Okay? And because I was a Majority Leader for four years in the Senate and then President Pro Tem for eight years, so over that twelve years I had to often go with what was in the best interest of the people of the state of Missouri. I couldn‟t just vote my district, because that goes with leadership. And that‟s not always easy to do! Because sometimes what is in the best interest of the whole five and a half million or a majority of the five and a half million population of the state of Missouri isn‟t what the Twenty-first Senatorial District would necessarily believe! So I often would have to extend myself to not only vote for something they wouldn‟t necessarily agree with but lead it. And the beautiful thing about it was that I would go home… See, I‟ve always had the philosophy that I‟m going to make a vote on any issue that I think is the right vote. And I think that because I have the opportunity to have more information before me than do my constituents, generally. [Tape meter, 200] JM = James 24 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris Okay? And that‟s the role of a lobbyist, [to] provide me with information. Not twist my arm and beat me up, but to give me information that makes me want to vote the way they want me to vote. And almost every issue, 99.9% of the time, there‟s two lobbyists on an issue, one for it and one against it. So you take their information and you try to bring it together. Many times I‟ve been caught in a situation. So what I do is I go home, and I put out a press release for the seven counties that I serve -- and that‟s switched around, by the way, three times in those years. Pettis County is not even in my Senate district any more! Where my home is, okay? That‟s now the Twenty-eighth Senatorial District. So they have two senators. [A] guy said to me, “You mean we‟ve got to pay both of you damn guys?” [I said,] “Yeah, you do „til I leave.” Often was caught in that. But the best way to deal with it is face it! Because I also felt like that my district was getting a gain out of me being in a leadership role. When they had a problem, when the city council in Sedalia or the city council in Marshall or wherever in my district -- you know, the district that I had the honor of serving -- when they had a problem when I was Majority Floor Leader in the Senate and President Pro Tem in the Senate over twelve years, they got the problem fixed. So they got a benefit from me being there. They got to just suck it up and understand there‟s times that I couldn‟t totally vote the district. I had to go somewhere else. RF: You‟d mentioned the press. How do you feel the media has treated you over the years? JM: I would tell you that up until probably about three years ago, four years ago, they had treated me very well. Oh, they‟d bust me once in a while because as Majority Floor JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 25 Leader in the Senate and then President Pro Tem for that twelve years, I was in a statewide status! (chuckles) I was making decisions and doing things and I had a high profile. Okay? So it was very common that I was in the Kansas City Star or the [St. Louis] Post-Dispatch or… Used to have [the St. Louis] Globe-Democrat down there, who I got along with very well. But then they bellied up. [Smiling] Maybe it was because they got along with me, I don‟t know. And then the Springfield Leader-Statesman… I‟m just reaching out. The papers around and the media in general, I got along with. Okay? Yeah, they‟d disagree with me sometimes and they‟d bust me for my decisions but overall I got along with them very well. About three years ago the Post-Dispatch and I broke off. I don‟t talk to them now and they‟ll find anything they can to bust me with. That‟s a long story and I won‟t go into that. But I do not have a good relationship with the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. But I did for years. I just haven‟t for the last three years, and don‟t today. RF: Well, let‟s see, we‟re getting a little short on time… JM: Yes. RF: What is your opinion of term limits? JM: Oh, I think it‟s awful! I think it‟s just God awful! I want to tell you that one of the… That was an ultra-conservative Republican move that came out of the East coast. Let me just make my point very quickly with that. Wouldn‟t we all find it interesting that Missouri had a Democrat-controlled House and Senate and had had for fifty years? [Tape meter, 250] JM = James 26 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris Kansas had the same thing only it was opposite. They had a Republican-controlled House and Senate and they had for several years. Isn‟t it interesting that term limits have never even been introduced in Kansas? But they carried in Missouri. Just find that interesting. Okay? They picked the states they wanted. And they‟ve won with it! It is, I think, terrible. I never understood. And I went out and campaigned against when it was on the ballot, and I was up for election that year. I went out and campaigned against it. Why would you want to give up the right to vote for who you want to? I don‟t understand people‟s thought process there. “Throw the rascals out,” you know? Maybe you want to keep a rascal! Maybe it‟s in your best interest to keep somebody! Why would you want to throw them out? You just took away your right to make that decision. Now you‟re not going to have a chance to vote for Jim Mathewson. People do not understand that. People that voted for that issue today come to me and admit to me that they did! They say, “Well, Jim, I didn‟t understand that‟s what it did.” Because they‟ll say to me, “Well, you‟re going to run again, aren‟t you?” “Can‟t.” “What do you mean, you can‟t?” “Why, I can‟t! Term limits won‟t allow me to!” “Well, who did that?” And I said, “You. You did. 1992. You did that.” And they‟ll say, “Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I think I did vote for it. Well, I didn‟t know what I was voting for.” I think there will come a time when the people will want to vote it out, but they‟re going to lose. The people that have the history of that place, they‟ll have already lost them all. You know, I forgot what it was in last year, 2002, wasn‟t it something like 286 years of experience walked out that door just in the Senate? Besides the House. And JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 27 now next year in 2004, there‟ll be that many or more years of experience going to walk out that door. And what‟s really sad to me about that is not that fact that I can‟t run anymore. Because you know what? I‟m just dumb enough that I would have done it. Okay? Because I love that darn place! And still think I make a difference. I still take care of more people‟s problems I guarantee you than any other senator there is in the state of Missouri. [Tape meter, 288. Tape recorder malfunctions, auto stop engages. A small portion of conversation is lost. Interview resumes after adjustments are made on recording machinery.] RF: Okay, I‟m sorry about that. JM: What‟d I say? I was talking about term limits. I was expounding! RF: (chuckles) Along the lines that if you could you‟d run again. JM: Yeah! I‟m just goofy enough to do that, because I don‟t think anybody‟s going to care about the people like I do. Okay? I mean, that’s what we do. And because I’m now in the minority, I only have one staff person. (chuckles) You know, used to have five. And that‟s okay! And they didn‟t force me -- I want to make that clear -- the Republicans didn‟t force me to get rid of those people. I did it because I couldn‟t justify it. [Tape meter, 300] When I wasn‟t a chairman of the committee anymore and I was in a minority role, I couldn‟t justify having that staff. They didn‟t take them away from me. I got rid of them. Okay, I‟m down to one. Don‟t even have anybody in my district office. You call JM = James 28 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris my district office now, you get my Jeff[erson] City office, because I‟ve got a switchover. Then we just pay the bill every month. But I think it‟s goofy, I think that people are going to see that as a serious mistake as they start losing the people that knew what they were doing! And you know what? There [aren‟t] any new ideas. It‟s very rare that we ever in the legislature come up with a new idea. Now, what we may do is take an old idea and make it fit today‟s world. But most of the ideas are old ideas. We‟re just changing them around a little bit to make them fit today. And it‟s pretty darn good to have somebody stand on the floor of the Missouri Senate and say, “I remember this. I remember this in 1982. And here was what they were trying to do but they didn‟t get it done, and here‟s why.” Boom, boom, boom. You know? That historic memory of that place I think is worth gold! RF: Looking back on the things you‟ve done, what would you call maybe your proudest achievement? JM: [Speaking in a joking, slightly mocking tone] In the legislature? RF: (chuckling) Yeah! JM: In the legislature. Well, my proudest achievement is that I raised five kids and they‟re all good kids. They‟re raising good families and I love them. And my wife stayed with me for thirty-eight years through all this. That‟s my proudest thing. In the legislature, if I had to identify one it would be Senate Bill 380. And I‟ve done some biggies. You go back and you look over the last twenty-five years, and my fingerprints are on about every major bill that‟s ever been around there. I may have not been [the author,] but I helped it along. Okay? If it wasn‟t mine. And of course JM = James L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris 29 obviously they weren‟t all mine. But probably Senate Bill 380. I think that changed more lives in a positive way. What‟s sad about it is we‟re losing all that now. Because we can‟t get the Republicans to get their head out of their butts and recognize that we‟ve got to have some more money out here for education. We‟re hurting people, we‟re hurting their future. And Senate Bill 380 moved us a giant step forward, and we stayed in that mode all the way from ‟93 until last year, in 2002, when we started cutting that budget on education. And as the old boy from Benton County said, “They ain‟t seen nothing yet.” Because the next cut for the next fiscal year is going to be a devastating one! [Tape meter, 350] So that‟s terrible, because we‟re going to be right back up to thirty-five, forty kids in a K [kindergarten] though Four setting, with one teacher. And that‟s crowd control, that‟s not education. That‟s sad to me that we‟re going to lose all those gains. We‟re going to lose that! And we‟re going to have schools shutting down all over the state. I don‟t want to see that happen. I wish the Republicans [would] start recognizing there‟s more to supporting public education than going once a year and reading a book to second graders. You know, sometimes you‟ve got to hang your life out there. And I have time and time again, and I‟m proud of the fact that I did it and I have no regrets! My attitude is this: If the issue is important enough to do, then it‟s more important than my political future. And I‟ll do it. Good place to quit [recording.] RF: Okay. JM = James 30 L. Mathewson

RF = Renae Farris [Tape meter, 368. End of side two, tape one of one. End of interview.]INDEX Apportionment (Election Law)--Missouri, 24 Ashcroft, John David (1942- ), 14-16 Bond, Christopher Samuel "Kit" (1939- ), 14 Britton, John (1925- ), 22-23 Carnahan, Melvin Eugene "Mel", 16-17 Education--Finance--Missouri, 18, 28-29 Educational law and legislation--Missouri, 18, 28-29 Governors--Missouri, 14 Griffin, Bob Franklin (1935- ), 16-17 Kansas. General Assembly., 25-26 Legislators--Missouri--Balance between personal and professional life, 10-11 Legislators--Missouri--Educational background, 4 Legislators--Missouri--Interaction, 13, 16 Lobbying and lobbyists, 22-24 Mass media, 24-25 Mathewson, Arvel D. (1919-1995), 1 Mathewson, Clyde (?-1940), 1 Mathewson, Doris, 4-6, 10, 12, 17, 28 Mathewson, Eula May Cantwell (1903-1981) SEE Strecker, Eula May Cantwell Mathewson (1903-1981) Mathewson family, 1-5, 12-13, 28 Mathewson, James Lee (1938- ), (all) Mathewson, James Leonard (1896-1980), 1-3, 12 Mathewson, Nora Clark, 1 Missouri, Benton County--Politics and government, 5-6 Missouri. General Assembly. Anecdotes, 8 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate--Gubernatorial Appointments Committee, 13-14 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate--Majority Floor Leader, 13-14, 23 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate--minority party, 15 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate--President Pro Tem, 13-14, 16 Missouri. General Assembly. Senate--Staff, 27-28 Missouri. General Assembly. Term of office limits, 25-28 Outstanding Schools Act (1993), 18, 28-29 Political ethics--Missouri, 19 Politics, Practical--Missouri, 5-9, 13-15, 20-21 Rothman, Kenneth J. (1935- ), 9 Senate Bill 380 (1993), 18, 28-29 Stohr, Peter H. "Pete" (1909-1993), 7 Strecker, Eula May Cantwell Mathewson (1903-1981), 1-3, 8 Teasdale, Joseph Patrick (1939- ), 14

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